Creating the Standard of Psychological Health and Safety with Mary Ann Baynton

Psychological health and safety is a hot topic but one that many leaders struggle with addressing. Thankfully we have leaders like Mary Ann Baynton to help create standards and frameworks that leaders and organizations can use to ensure their workplace is one where everyone can thrive.

Mary Ann has done so much work in workplace wellness and has helped countless organizations and government agencies in Canada develop standards to support employees, leaders, and organizations in this area.

On this episode of the Mental Health in Minutes podcast, we talk about creating a dialogue around coping with work stress, approaching a standard of wellness, what happens when leaders are overwhelmed and frustrated, and more. And Mary Ann shares three big things that can help during times of overwhelm and why we can’t blame a single event for our burnout.

Listen on your favourite podcast player

About Mary Ann Baynton:

Mary Ann is a consultant in the field of workplace mental health and psychological health and safety. She helped develop the National Standard of Canada on Psychological Health and Safety in Canada and serves as the Director of Collaboration and Strategy for Workplace Strategies for Mental Health which provides free resources compliments of Canada Life. Mary Ann is the author of several books including Mindful Manager, Keeping Well at Work and The Evolution of Workplace Mental Health in Canada. She strives to reduce unnecessary suffering by helping people get unstuck and improve working lives.

Connect with her on LinkedIn.

Mentioned In This Episode:



burnout, people, workplace, leaders, mental health, support, marianne, burned, employee, lindsay, strategies, work, psychologically, standard, safety, minutes, psychological safety, life, share, feel


Mary Ann Baynton, Lindsay Recknell

Lindsay Recknell  00:00

Welcome to season four of mental health in minutes. The podcast where we normalize mental health conversations at work, and share the strategies and tactics that make those conversations ones you actually want to have. I’m your host, Lindsay Recknell, the psychological health and safety advisor, a workplace mental health consultant, a speaker, facilitator and an expert in hope. If you’re listening to this episode, you know, our people need us more than ever, and I know you want to support them, but maybe you don’t know the words to use to engage them in conversation, or how to respond when they do open up. That’s what this podcast is all about. My guests will share tactical, practical and simple ways to connect with your people. Let them know you care about them and are there to support them and believe in them enough to continue investing in their career and personal development. Each episode we’ll also discuss the future of mental health in the workplace, and the top ways we can engage our leadership in the workplace mental health conversation, and have them endorse and pay for a positive culture shift within our organization. It’s hard to put into words but the first three seasons have meant to me as a workplace mental health professional. I am honored to learn from my guests and walk alongside them as they solve some of the biggest issues faced in their organizations today. One of these issues, dare I say the biggest issue I hear from leaders right now is that they end there people are suffering from burnout is syndrome resulting from chronic workplace stress. Burnout is very personal to me. The first time I experienced burnout was November of 2017. And this experience started me on the path to learning everything I could about burnout and what I could do to prevent, especially at work, be assured you can stop the slide. Burnout is not forever, and you do have the power to come back from the edge of burnout, you and your people. I’ve included a few simple strategies and tactics in my free training tryout package of materials you can download for free right now from my website at mental health in Forward slash tryout. without too much effort on your part, you can get started engaging with your team and teaching them to stop the slide into burnout for themselves. Included in this training tryout you’ll find two different lengths of presentations, a 15 minute and a five minute version, as well as the speaker’s notes for each along with a quick training video and a checklist to help you get started. Easy peasy just go to and download your free copy now. I’ll also link to the download in the show notes of this episode. Let me know how it goes. This week on the podcast I had the privilege to connect with a true leader in Canadian psychological health and safety. Someone who I’ve admired from afar ever since I got into this work so super thrilled to have her on the show. Marianne Baynton is a consultant in the field of workplace mental health and psychological health and safety. She helped develop the national standard of Canada on psychological health and safety and serves as the Director of collaboration and strategy for workplace strategies for mental health, which provides free resources complements of Canada life. Marianne is the author of several books, including mindful manager, keeping well at work and the evolution of workplace mental health in Canada. She strives to reduce unnecessary suffering by helping people get unstuck and improve working lives, and has so many tactical suggestions to share. So let’s just get into it. Hello, Maryann, it is wonderful to have you here. Thanks so much for joining us.

Mary Ann Baynton  03:12

Happy to be here, Lindsay,

Lindsay Recknell  03:13

it is a real pleasure, I can’t wait to have this discussion. You are somebody that I follow that I look up to as somebody who’s doing really great work in this mental health space, especially in the workplace. And I think you will have so many great strategies and real tactical stuff that our leaders and our HR professionals can use to support their people in the workplace. So maybe we’ll start off, could you share a little bit with us about who you are, what you do, and the kind of people that you’re working with?

Mary Ann Baynton  03:42

Sure, can I tell you a secret first that you won’t share with anybody

Lindsay Recknell  03:47

on a live podcast? But yeah,

Mary Ann Baynton  03:49

is that I’m really not that great. I just know a lot of great people. And I am constantly learning and collaborating and listening to what others have to say. And so I get a lot of credit for a lot of the things I’ve done, but I’ve done nothing alone. And so just just between you and I, I wanted you to know that. But so I run my own consulting business, and work in every sector, every level of government and really, my passion is about working relationships. So between an employer and their employees between a manager and their direct reports, between and among employees. That’s really where my passion is. As you know, I also have been part of the development of the national standard of Canada on psychological health and safety in the workplace, which is more the organizational level, policy level kind of approach and It’s definitely important. But my real love in this area is just how we treat each other, how we can lift each other up or knock each other down.

Lindsay Recknell  05:14

You and I are well aligned on that space. Also, I mean, building connection and opening the door to these kinds of conversations at work and making them feel normal, making them feel less awkward. Those that’s that’s the space that I love to play in as well. That is, those are the conversations that I love to have. So I think we definitely have some shared interest in that area for sure. Um, could we talk a little bit about the standard of psychological health and safety, just to give us a foundation for the listeners. And maybe we could start even basic or not a word lens, even more basic? What is your definition of psychological health and safety, especially as it relates to the workplace?

Mary Ann Baynton  06:02

I think I’ve given it to you. It’s a place where we are safe, to be authentic, to be vulnerable. And we’re supported to do our best work, right every day. So my best work today might not be as good as my best work yesterday, depending what I’m going, what I’m dealing with, but in a psychologically healthy and safe workplace, whatever my best is that day, I have what I need to do it. And it comes down Lindsay to how do we treat each other?

Lindsay Recknell  06:39

Yeah, the what level of respect do we offer? And and I just did a workshop this morning on owed respect versus earned respect. And I think that, you know, that basic level of humanity being that owed respect, and then earning respect, because of performance and compassion and relationship building, I think that’s really important as well. And, and it’s in, you know, it’s interesting we’ve in in our country, I feel like in Canada, we are a bit ahead of other countries, when we speak about psychological safety and using that language in the workplace. And I think the Canadian standard that you helped to develop has been a tool to move that conversation forward. Could you tell us a little bit about the standard, maybe why it’s a thing, sort of how it was created, and how it’s helping employers.

Mary Ann Baynton  07:32

So I’ll tell you, from my personal perspective, I was doing consulting work helping people return to work or stay at work when they had a mental health issue. So the mental health issue could range from depression, anxiety, to PTSD to addiction issues, eating disorders, there’s a wide variety. And what I found is that in some workplaces, this was quite easy to do, I would speak with the employee about what they needed. I talked to the manager about how to support them to do their best work in spite of whatever they were dealing with. And it was pretty smooth. And in some workplaces, it was much more difficult. The there was more anger, there was more confusion, there was more conflict and frustration. I didn’t have the language at the time to understand that one was a psychologically safe workplace and one was not. And it made me think maybe instead of doing one off consultations in order to help an individual, maybe we can go a little further upstream, and start thinking about what’s the differences between these two workplaces where one, somebody who lives and manages a mental health issue can thrive, and in the other people who were mentally healthy when they went in there come out with mental health issues. So how could we do that? And we had already had created guarding minds at work. Prior to that, to assess psychological health and safety in the workplace probably would have cost a large employer about six figures. So it was an expensive thing to look at, because somebody had to create it. Once that was free to any employer. We thought it was the right time to have what the standard is, is a consensus based, balanced approach. And when I say balanced, it means employers, employee ease employees, clinicians, researchers, regulators, all had equal say, to what would be included so nobody won In creating this standard, it had to be a consensus. And it’s really just a framework, that’s what it is, is that if you want to strive towards it, you’ve got to figure out what’s going on in your workplace and how you’re going to approach it. What the standard gives you, is a framework so that you do it in a comprehensive, systematic way.

Lindsay Recknell  10:26

I love that I love. So two things come to mind the balanced approach that you mentioned at the top of this, that you had really smart people that have influenced your work in a positive way. I mean, here’s a prime example of getting really smart people all in a room sharing their perspectives and finding a way to I don’t know, I mean, you couldn’t have made everybody happy. But I feel like you probably got a well rounded product a finished product that would meet the needs of the majority of people.

Mary Ann Baynton  11:02

It does you know what Senator Michael Kirby calls it, no equalized unhappiness means that nobody got exactly what they wanted, because we were all passionate advocates around that table for something or someone, all of us were. So nobody got exactly what they wanted. But everybody, I believe, walked away from their feeling that it was good work, that it could work in almost any environment for any workplace. And, and that was a standard is meant to be that the standard, not the best that you could aspire to. But neither such a minimum thresholds that there’s no effort made to reach it.

Lindsay Recknell  11:53

And I like that it’s a framework, you mentioned that language, because it means that people can, you know, you’ve got kind of guardrails that you can work within, but the ability to make it flexible to meet the needs of your people and your organization.

Mary Ann Baynton  12:10

I always say, What’s psychologically safe in a ballet school is not the same as in a police department, the you know, so there is no way to say you must do these things. To be psychologically safe. Not only is it the type of work that people are doing, but it is the team itself. So every time you change a team member, every time you change the type of work that’s being done, every time you change a leader, what’s necessary for psychological safety can change. So just the same way that we look at physical safety. And when we have new chemicals introduced when we have a new process or a new piece of equipment, or when we change the layout of the organization, all of those things can change the issues for physical safety.

Lindsay Recknell  13:07

Does creating psychological safety mean that we have to talk about our feelings all the time, or expect to lower standards of performance? Because we have to, you know, acquiesce to someone’s challenges?

Mary Ann Baynton  13:22

I’d say that it’s almost the the opposite, that what is psychological safety is when people their energy and their focus is optimized, right? Because you think what drains your energy, what distracts your focus, chaos, conflict, confusion, lack of leadership, you know, those are lack of morale. Those are the things that take away from us being able to do our best work. So when you’re in a psychologically safe workplace, you can do your best work. Now, the other thing that you said, Lindsay is, what about talking about our feelings, and it should not be a sob fest. That’s not the point. No leader should become an armchair therapist. In fact, it’s actually unethical. Because if you’re in a power relationship with someone, and you’re talking to them about how they should feel, how they should deal with their mental health, how they should deal with their personal life, for that matter. It’s not fair because you could fire them, you can stop them from being promoted, so you don’t have a right to give them that kind of advice. What it does mean however, is that we do open a dialogue about coping with work stress, we do have leaders that are more emotionally intelligent, but that they are emotionally intelligent. In the way that they can hear somebody, they can empathize. But then they can say, thank you for sharing that with me. I’m not the best person to help you with your personal medical health issues. But how can I help you while you’re here at work, and I’ve got some resources, whether they’re in the community online, or here that I think might help to want me to share them with you. So there’s still that very clear line. But any employer who has not yet understood that psychological safety is good for business, are just not looking at the evidence. They’re not looking at the research.

Lindsay Recknell  15:43

And I think that that is one of the best things about how we’ve evolved in workplace mental health in Canada, for sure. Elsewhere around the world, in varying degrees, for sure. But it is all of the evidence and research to support the beauty of doing this kind of work, how we raise collective wellness, we raise collective productivity and collective goodness in our economy. And you’re right, anybody who’s doesn’t get it, I’m wondering if they’re living in a cave, perhaps just not so educated yet. And they need to listen to more podcast episodes like this one, I’ll tell you.

Mary Ann Baynton  16:24

You know, I think I think there’s a lot of things going on. I mean, some people just were raised up in the old school command and control model. And they truly believe that if they don’t keep their thumb on people, if they don’t keep control, through micromanaging and you know, allowing no discretion or autonomy, they really believe it will all fall apart. And so that fear is what drives their performance, their leadership. And when you think about us, like Lindsay, whether it’s you or me, when we’re afraid, or we’re overwhelmed, or we’re frustrated, we are not as empathetic, we are not as collaborative, or as trusting or as supportive, because we’re dealing maybe not well with her own emotions. So at one point leadership was, who has the vision, who understands the tactics, who has the strategy, and there’s still value in that, but they’re not the people who should manage other people. But in order to manage other people, we need a high degree of emotional intelligence, both about recognizing and managing our own emotions, and recognizing accurately and responding to other people’s emotions. And it’s been my, my feeling that we need to change the management Stratus all together that, absolutely, we need those concrete linear thinkers who may or may not have high emotional intelligence, but they’re great at strategy. And we need the emotionally intelligent people to encourage support the best work from each employee. Now those people that have high emotional intelligence can also deal with those strategic thinkers who may not be as sensitive to the needs of the frontline leaders. But they’ll be able to do it because they have that skill set.

Lindsay Recknell  18:41

So when I can just imagine leaders listening to this show going, Yes, I want that I want this in my organization. But again, it feels overwhelming. Where do they start to make this kind of positive impact in their organization?

Mary Ann Baynton  18:58

Well, one of the places to start, you know, when we did the standard, one of the clauses is that if you and I’m paraphrasing, but if you manage leaders support people, that you ought to be competent to manage support or lead people in a psychologically safe way. Great statement, but to what you just said, but what does it mean, and how do we know and the standard says you should measure it? So I worked with Dr. Jody Samra, and we created the psychologically safe leader assessment and in it there are, I don’t know how many 60 some statements that are actual leadership strategies known to support psychological health and safety. And all you do as an individual, is you go through and say I do this. Never sometimes always And once you’re done doing your assessment, as honestly as possible, we do understand that some leaders overrate themselves. And so there is an option where you can have your employees rate you on their perspective on how well you do in those things, if you dare, and some leaders, absolutely, there’s so thirsty for how can I do this better that they have no problem with this at all, and others who are afraid, I don’t want to ask what they think of me. But in any case, if you do it yourself at something that’s free, then the report that you get back will direct you no matter which statement it is, it’ll direct you to some resource that can help you improve that one. So it’s very practical, it’s not, are you a nice person? Or it’s just do you do this? Do you have your check ins? Do you support? Feedback from your employees? Very straightforward. Do you do this? Or do you not?

Lindsay Recknell  21:05

Where do we find self assessment? I need to put a link in the show notes.

Mary Ann Baynton  21:10

Oh, sure. I psychologically safe Amazing. I mean, there’s on the Canadian Center for occupational health and safety’s website, because we create all these resources commission them and but because everything that’s done at workplace strategies is supported by Canada life, which is an insurance company, even though they do it for free, and it’s all for the greater good people worry was do will they have my personal information? So we put it on CCO HS, Canadian Center for occupational health and safety to say, No, this really is for your benefit. Don’t be afraid, use it.

Lindsay Recknell  21:56

I love I love that. Because that is something for sure. That gets in the way of people. When we think about any sort of employee assessment or organizationally driven assessment, that’s the number one thing that I hear from people is, I don’t actually believe you that this is a confidential or that my leader has no way to distinguish who I am or who answered this. So I, psychologically, I like that you considered that as a as a to reduce the barrier, because these kinds of resources, this kind of education, to your point about self awareness, if we don’t know what we don’t know, how can we possibly be better? We can’t. Yeah,

Mary Ann Baynton  22:37

you know, you said something, Lindsay, before we even started about what’s the cost of managing to the manager to the leader. And I have seen significant cost of depression, anxiety, burnout. And it’s often leaders who really want to do the right thing. But nobody has ever supported them, or help them or train them on how to do it. So they get an employee that they think they’re trying to help it blows up in their face, because either the employee gets so upset, or the employee ends up off with depression, and the manager feels blamed for it. So we really want to support managers and leaders, we don’t want to just criticize

Lindsay Recknell  23:34

Mm hmm. And so we’re recording this in March of 2022. And I feel like we’re in the next phase of whatever the pandemic looks like. And regardless of whether people think that it’s over or not over, or whatever, I think we’re in this new evolving phase. And and why I bring that up is it makes me think about our leaders in this phase. You know, the, the evolution of how to lead in this next phase is new, like we are, we’re yet at another transition point. And trying to support leaders who are exhausted and burnt out. What do you see as, as the way we can support leaders in this next phase?

Mary Ann Baynton  24:24

So I think, I think there’s several things here’s what I would say to the leaders themselves, because I have burned out, and I, you know, some people think, Oh, you just got a little tired. Burnout. For me, and for most people that I’ve talked to have actually experienced it is an almost complete depletion of emotional, mental, and a physical energy. So you’re just dragging yourself through life when you’re burned out. And I thought for me, it seemed to hang on for so long. It was three months. But for some people, it’s yours. So they get burned out. And then they spend years in that condition, which is horrible. So here’s the three things that worked for me. And there’s lots of content on the website about practical ideas to for that. But here’s the three things that I still do to this day, when I start to feel that overwhelm when I start to feel the Enel that cynicism, because that was a big difference. For me, I love people. And I see the goodness in almost everyone, even people that others can’t see anything good in them. But when I was burned out, I thought nobody cared everybody’s out to get me. And it was not true, Lindsay, but it is what the burnout did to my mind, is I really felt that way. So here’s the three things. One is slow down, slow down the way you talk, slow down the way you think, slow down the way you move, and most especially slow down the way you work. And that may sound counterintuitive, you’re burned out your energy’s low, you’re supposed to slow down. But when you’re burned out, you’re going to make mistakes, you’re going to have poor quality of work. If you slow it down, you are much more likely to be able to get through this without too much collateral damage. The other thing about slowing down physically, is I was banging into furniture and walls and cutting my fingers all the time. And that’s just because you’re not present. Right that you’re like that. Second one is do only one thing at a time. Now, we know that multitasking is a myth, but it doesn’t mean we don’t try really hard to do it anyways. Right? But that also takes away energy and sets you up to make more mistakes. So if you try to focus on one thing at a time, then when you have to change focus, go ahead and do that. But then focus on whatever is in front of you. This is most important when you’re talking to another human. Because if you’re distracted, if you’re thinking of something else, the opportunity for misunderstanding or people feeling hurt by you is significant when you’re burned out. And then the last one is set priorities, and you want to set manageable priority. So three things a day that you’re going to accomplish when I know you probably have 100. But the reason I want you to set three, and they don’t even all have to be work is because when you’re burned out, you often think you’re worthless, that it’s hopeless, that you’re never going to get caught up. And by doing three little things today, you can start to chip away at that attitude that we’ll look at. I said I was going to and some of my Three Things were make somebody laugh today, which was a big feat when I was coming tell you, but it’s to start to shift your mind away from what’s wrong to what is positive. What is good in the world. Yeah.

Lindsay Recknell  28:31

Oh, there’s so much goodness there. So, so much. Um, one of the things like at the very beginning where you said that burnout is not just too much stress, I think that that’s something that people don’t recognize. And something we talk a lot about mental health and minutes, especially in our burnout workshop is that burnout is that tipping point where you had chronic stress for so long, the stress chemicals in your body are elevated, that parasympathetic nervous system is out of control for a long period of time, I mean, our bodies are designed to peak and then come back down, right and then peak again. But so many of us are this long term chronic stress over time. And it’s that tipping point we go into burnout when we tip from feeling like it’s too much into not enough, not enough energy, not enough motivation, truly not enough cares left to give. Right? And then and then it does it comes down to our emotions. And you mentioned that quite a bit as the recognition of your patients levels and your cynicism and your the effort it took to make other people laugh, let alone yourself, you know, those are all kind of human experiences that are impacted by that burnout. And so often, I think we forget about our emotional response to the stressors in our lives. And it’s very, very cool to have these tactics that you mentioned, to try to get us back bounce back from that place. Because burnout is absolutely recoverable from, as I know, you know, it’s not hopeless. You know, if you do end up in that place, you can get out of it.

Mary Ann Baynton  30:21

You know, you mentioned tipping point, Lindsay. And we did a round table where we had 30, some people who had actually experienced burnout, we shared our stories, and we were looking for themes and patterns and to see how they stacked up against the evidence, the research on burnout. And one of the things was that almost every one of us describe something somebody said, or did that we found hurtful, whether you were betrayed, or you’re being gossiped about, or you were denied a promotion, whatever it was, there was something that they said was the moment they knew they were burned out. But every single one of them had really poor self care before that. So we had been, as you say, living with chronic stress for years. In my case, it was probably decades before that moment. So we blamed our burnout on a particular person and thing, and it was not true. It was the straw that broke the camel’s back, if you will. But it was not why we burned out, it was just the moment we understood, because we didn’t have enough energy left, to respond gracefully, to whatever that was.

Lindsay Recknell  31:48

My that is so powerful, what you just said, because, like, it’s so true, we can all I’m sure think of those moments, where then we feel like, we can play the victim because this happened to me, and this is what’s caused me But truly, it was leading to this place, which makes me think that there are proactive things we can be doing to prevent us from getting into this place in the first place. Do you have proactive things?

Mary Ann Baynton  32:18

Yeah. I mean, I use those three things I told you to be proactive now. But really, it’s about having balance in life. Many of the people put their heart and soul but also their time and energy into work exclusively. So they’re not taking time for themselves. It For Me, I said, No, I have balanced I went home right at five o’clock. And then I volunteered you know, as a coach and I volunteered in the community and I volunteered at the kids school and I had a house to run and I you know, was there for other people. So I was a workaholic is just my work was paid and unpaid. So it was still that idea that you don’t deserve to stop. Sondra Dalton Smith, she’s done some great work on types of rest. And you know, you think okay, rest means sleep. And she said no, like there’s physical rest, which could be sleep or massage or yoga, that kind of thing. There’s creative rest, where you stop always trying to do to create to make for people, there is spiritual rest, which has nothing to do with religion, but it’s where you connect back to nature, back to stillness, back to your own self. There is social rest, where you stop trying to be on for people all the time and interacting, especially with people who drain you. Right. And it that issue for myself and for many is that thought that I am not a value, except when I am a service. And some people call it the good girl syndrome. Some people just call it lack of self esteem, but it falls somewhere in there. But it’s that unless I’m doing for someone, I am not a worthy human. So we have to deal with that to avoid burnout.

Lindsay Recknell  34:29

And that’s an entirely other podcast episode. I mean, we could go on that would for a long time. Marianne you have given me and the listeners so much to think about. There is nothing here that you’ve that you’ve mentioned, that is a shallow, easy topic. But you’ve also given us some real strategies that like you said, had worked for you that we could try and they won’t all work of course, but they may give us other ideas of things. To try and I really appreciate that tactic, those tactics, I am an action kind of gal and I love to see what I can do. So I really appreciate those strategies and tactics as well. Could you share with us how people can get ahold of you when they have heard your brilliance and want to learn more?

Mary Ann Baynton  35:17

Well, first to send them to workplace strategies for mental health calm, because everything that I’m talking about those resources, like prevent burnout, or burnout response for leaders how to leaders prevent burnout among their direct reports. It’s all there. It’s all free. It’s all in English and French for anyone. So So that’s the first thing. And then my website for my consulting businesses, Maryam So pretty straightforward. If you want to reach me that way, and I’m on LinkedIn.

Lindsay Recknell  35:53

Amazing. And we will put all the links to those things in the show notes. And the beauty of having people like you consultants who can help to implement these things, helps with the overwhelm as well. So I really encourage anybody who’s listening that, you know, just won some hand holding support, partnership, walk in this work to definitely reach out to Marianne, thank you again, for coming on the show and sharing all of your thoughts with us. It’s been a real pleasure. I can’t even believe that we have to end our time. I could obviously talk to you forever. So yes, thank you for being here. It’s been a real pleasure.

Mary Ann Baynton  36:28

Thanks for being in kindred spirit. Lindsay.

Lindsay Recknell  36:31

Take care. Well, did I totally fangirl over Marianne, or what I mean, she’s so articulate, intelligent and passionate about her work. And I think that’s because she comes from a place of lived experience with burnout and struggling with mental health. She brings a personal perspective combined with a genuine desire to help others make connections, I seriously could have kept speaking with her for another 30 minutes. At the beginning of the show, I mentioned the free training, you can try it with your teams all about stopping the slide into burnout. That feeling of overwhelming endless stress so many of us are experiencing right now. To compliment those materials, which you can download for free from my website at mental health in Forward slash tryout, I’ve also created a 60 minute live virtual or in person workshop titled from burnout to hope, which has been transformational for so many organizations. You and your team will lead this workshop understanding how to identify the signs of burnout and yourself and others how to put into action the evidence based strategies and tactics to reverse feelings of overwhelm, and languishing and activate the hope circuit in your brain for a future even better than today. It’s helpful, practical and transformative, and I’d love to bring it to your organization. On our website, you’ll find more information about this workshop as well as the mental health and minutes digital subscription I’ve done for you package of presentations and other content designed to help you make meaningful connections with your people. increase knowledge and education about mental health related topics, and normalize these kinds of conversations in your workplace. The thing we do best at mental health in minutes is open the door to conversations about mental health at work. And episodes like this give us real things we can try to truly make a difference. Being a people leader is especially hard right now, you might feel like you’re managing both up and down the corporate ladder. And if the thought of figuring out how to best support your people and yourself feels overwhelming and impossibly hard, let’s talk. We’re here to do the heavy lifting with the resources and materials along with the training and facilitation, leaving you to do what you do best engaging with and supporting your people. We have many ways to support you from full service hands on to guidance and support from afar. So let’s chat about what works best for you and your people. As always, I’m here if you need me.

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