As the climate around mental health at work continues to evolve, one thing is clear: These conversations are becoming non-negotiable in workplaces around the globe. And while simply having these conversations is a step in the right direction, it’s important to ensure that the conversation are constructive and impactful in a positive way.
Today, Melissa Doman joins me to share her expertise on this topic and discuss some of the major themes in her book that really resonated with me. We hit several different points on having constructive mental health conversations at work, including how we can develop the skill set to have these conversations, the science behind why we should, counterproductive mental health at work trends, what not to do, and more.
Improving mental health at work is a shared responsibility for the benefit of our collective wellness. Whether you are in a leadership position or not, tune in and get practical tips on taking action within your organization.
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About Melissa Doman:
Melissa Doman is an Organizational Psychologist, Former Clinical Mental Health Therapist, and author who specializes in mental health at work. Melissa works with international, national, and local organizations and Fortune 500 companies across industries and across the globe – including clients like Salesforce, Siemens, Estée Lauder, and Janssen. She has also been featured in the BBC and CNBC about the mental health aspects of the Great Resignation. She also has an international perspective on her work as she’s lived abroad in South Korea, Australia, and England and traveled to 45+ countries. Mel has one core goal: to equip companies, individuals, and leaders to have constructive conversations about mental health in the workplace. Her book just came out in October, with the specific goal of doing just that.
Mentioned In This Episode:
- Yes, You Can Talk About Mental Health at Work by Melissa Doman
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Lindsay Recknell 0:07
Welcome to Mental Health in Minutes where we open the door to conversations about workplace mental health, and help leaders and HR professionals create safe and innovative organizations where our employees and our companies thrive. I’m your host Lindsay Recknell, a psychological health and safety advisor, a workplace mental health consultant, a speaker, a facilitator and an expert in hope.
Lindsay Recknell 0:28
Each episode of this show has three objectives, to discuss the future of mental health in the workplace. To identify the best, most successful strategies for opening the door to mental health conversations at work, and to share the top ways we can engage our leadership in the workplace mental health conversation, and have them endorse and pay for a positive culture shift within our organizations.
Lindsay Recknell 0:49
If you’re listening to this podcast, you know that our people need us more than ever, but most of our organizations have a long way to go until supporting employee wellness is embedded in the culture of our workplaces. This episode is a resource you can use to start and continue workplace mental health conversations, and my guests will share their experiences and what’s worked for them.
Lindsay Recknell 1:08
Today’s guest is Melissa Dohmen, an organizational psychologist, former clinical mental health therapist, and an author who specializes in mental health at work. Melissa works with international, national and local organizations and fortune 500 companies across industries and across the globe, including clients like Salesforce, Siemens, Estee Lauder, and Jensen. Mel has also been featured in the BBC, and CNBC about the mental health aspects of the great resignation.
Lindsay Recknell 1:37
She also has an international perspective on her work, as she just lived abroad in South Korea, Australia and England. And she’s traveled to 45 countries. Mel has one core goal is to equip companies, individuals and leaders to have constructive conversations about mental health in the workplace. Her new book just came out in October, but the specific goal of doing just that. This is a great conversation. So let’s dig in.
Lindsay Recknell 2:03
Hello, Melissa, welcome to the show.
Melissa Doman 2:06
I have been looking forward to this conversation. For days, I am so excited to be here. Thank you,
Lindsay Recknell 2:14
I was so excited to have you on the show. Because I think you and I just speak the same language we are all about. I mean, clearly all of us supporting mental health at work, but also to not just talk about the theory and the how and the why, but also to talk about the action and the how and I I’m really excited to hear some of the thoughts that you have to share with us.
Lindsay Recknell 2:34
But before we get in there, and so I did share your professional fancy bio in the introduction, but I’d love for you to tell us who you are, what you do and who you serve.
Melissa Doman 2:44
So, my name is Melissa, everybody calls me Mel, if I hear Melissa means I’m in big trouble. I am an organizational psychologist, former clinical mental health therapist and author of the SC 10. Talk about mental health at work, here’s why and how to do really well. So to boil down the core of what I do is to equip companies, leaders and individuals on how to have constructive mental health at work conversations.
Melissa Doman 3:13
Notice I say constructive, not just the conversations. My clients range from giant companies like Estee Lauder, and Salesforce all the way down to teeny tiny mom and pop shops and everything in between. This is a conversation that has always been important. But now it is non negotiable and permanently on the table in the world of work. So my mission is not only to open up these conversations, teach people to how to have these conversations, but also all sides of the conversation, not just the hashtag bubble stuff. And I have a sneaking suspicion you’re on the same page.
Lindsay Recknell 3:52
Melissa Doman 3:52
I’m so happy we found each other.
Lindsay Recknell 3:54
Yeah. Absalutely I, I mean, I love the emphasis that you put on words like constructive and non negotiable and permanently on the table. Because I could not agree with you more. It is about time that we get to have these conversations. You know, it’s it’s been hard. It’s been a struggle for people to feel safe to feel comfortable to feel like it’s their place to have important conversations at work. And, you know, having having authorities like you who can share the how I think is the ultimate in supporting our leaders supporting our peoples and putting our executives have those things.
Lindsay Recknell 4:33
So I’m very excited to have this conversation. Thank you for sharing all the wonderful work that you’re doing. And so you wrote a book, and
Melissa Doman 4:42
Lindsay Recknell 4:42
yes. Congratulations. Very exciting. I have really enjoyed your book, full full disclosure audience. I’m only halfway through but the part that I read fantastic.
Lindsay Recknell 4:52
So some of the things I’d really like to talk about are the themes that really resonated with me from your book. And not only the wall Why workplace mental health is very important and why these conversations are important, because we know anecdotally that they are, but also how we have these conversations, which I know you have a ton of experience in with your organizational psychology background as well as being a former therapist, Could you could you share with us some of the science behind why it’s important to have these conversations?
Melissa Doman 5:24
You know, it’s so interesting that people often forget, but now it’s much more in the social fabric of discussions, that having these conversations or not having these conversations, and how the conversations go, really register with us from like a nervous system perspective, and also in lots of different fun parts of our brain. So people were not taught to slow down and pause to acknowledge the reactions that a stimulus might cause.
Melissa Doman 6:02
We’re not taught taught to slow down and pause, how to determine what threat feels like, we’re not taught to slow down and acknowledge all of the different cocktail of emotions that we experienced as people, because oftentimes, the generations before us weren’t either. So if we think about the absence of having these sorts of discussions and the lack of psychological safety that that creates, it can create a whole festival of chemicals and reactions in people that are not so great.
Melissa Doman 6:32
So for example, I like to joke that the prefrontal cortex that makes us uniquely human makes us self aware, we can, you know, create and innovate with logic, conscience, all of these sorts of things. Doesn’t really like our primal brain and our amygdala, and they get into fights because they don’t want to cooperate. And so the absence of those sorts of discussions, it is very easy, not only for the structures in our brain that control the fight, flight, freeze response to occur, but also to have our brains to get very creative as to why this conversations are not happening.
Melissa Doman 7:10
And we can get really creative. And then let’s go to the other side, let’s say that we are having those conversations, but they’re not going very well. That is a great way to make someone feel as though they’re under a big threat. And that can come out in lots of different ways.
Melissa Doman 7:27
So what I mean by that, is, let’s say that someone says to their manager, you know, I’m really struggling with depression, I think I need to be moved off this project and onto this project. Unless the manager says, Well, if you can’t do the job, we need to find someone else. How do you think that’s going to make someone feel
Lindsay Recknell 7:46
Melissa Doman 7:46
That terrible falling in the pit of your stomach, like you feel like you’re gonna die in that moment, is your you don’t realize that that is your brain registering a threat, because you’re interpreting someone is saying you’re not capable, something’s wrong with you, and all these terrible things, that those terribly crafted or non crafted conversations can cause. So I want to remind people of the the neuroscience and the physiological response of the absence of conversations or when they don’t go very well.
Melissa Doman 8:22
Because if you’re so inflamed, and your hormones and neurotransmitters are just out of control, people need to remember that sort of impact. It’s not just the words that are being spoken or not spoken, but the literal physical impact that it will create. You just have to teach people to recognize what those signs are, how to not screw up the conversation, but make sure you’re still having it.
Lindsay Recknell 8:53
Like, fascinating. I mean, who, who knew the physiological chemical reaction in your body?
Melissa Doman 9:02
I love nerding out about this stuff. We could talk about it all day.
Lindsay Recknell 9:05
Melissa Doman 9:05
And what’s really interesting is, let’s say, let’s say for the, for the sake of example, the word trigger. So what most folks don’t realize is that that term didn’t even become really clinically relevant until after the Second World War and started getting more popular, you know, in this in the 70s, and 80s.
Melissa Doman 9:26
But now, the term triggered has been widely adopted across just literally everywhere, and it’s very easy for that to happen. So imagine triggers as those slightly lit embers, like in a fire, they’re always there. They’re always slightly lit. But let’s say that you have a really bad mental health at work conversation, whoosh, up in flames. And that’s those that physiological and emotional response that it seems to hit us out of nowhere.
Melissa Doman 9:56
But that’s when you learn to identify those signs. Trying to then not only mitigate, but what find out what you need next.
Lindsay Recknell 10:05
Well, and also then it’s those those whoosh that those embers blowing into, into, you know, these big mushroom clouds of emotion and behavior and all of these things that show up out loud for people, and your colleagues are all looking at you like cash, what is wrong with that person, when really, we should be looking at them and thinking, Well, what happened to them what conversation has just occurred that is the heck up, you know, it’s a change in perspective, and how we how we’re approaching our colleagues as well, and how we’re having compassion for them.
Melissa Doman 10:43
100%. And honestly, pausing to seek to understand is not a common skill, we are very reactive creatures naturally. And so teaching ourselves to not be is not super easy, otherwise, everybody would be doing it, right. So it’s about remembering the different plane of existence, that someone can be shot into, even for just a moment, if they feel as though their character is under attack, for struggling with something that is so common, and literally everywhere, just because of the discomfort of others.
Lindsay Recknell 11:30
Mm hm. So speaking of discomfort of others, it is sometimes hard for leaders to open the door to these conversations for fear that they’re going to get it wrong. Can we talk a little bit about that, and how to have these kinds of conversations. What you would say to leaders who are terrified to even open the door for fear that they’re not going to do it right.
Melissa Doman 11:59
100%, and it’s okay to be afraid. That’s the saying is there’s so much pressure on leaders and founders and C suite people that they have to be the ones to get it right. There are some of the people who need to get it right. This is something that every single person in the workplace should be striving to get it right. But if you’re in a leadership position, you have more influence power dynamics can be really spicy.
Melissa Doman 12:27
And so it’s important to realize the position you’re in and therefore the influence that you can have. So as I say to a lot of people, you wouldn’t be expected unless you were plugged in to like The Matrix, you wouldn’t be expected to be fluent in Mandarin overnight. Why would you expect yourself to be fluent and having really good mental health conversations overnight, be sure that it is developing a skill set like any other skill sets. And when it comes to the fear of getting it wrong, there are lots of reasons for that are potential motivation.
Melissa Doman 13:00
So for example, there are some folks who say I don’t want to get wrong, I don’t want to get named lawsuit. Those people exist, we can be honest about that. There are some folks who say I feel like a fish out of water, I just don’t want to go down that road. And then there’s other folks who say, I really don’t want to get it wrong. So I don’t want to make them feel worse.
Melissa Doman 13:22
And all of those reasons are valid, but they’re not sustainable. And so you cannot going forward, be a people leader and not have these conversations. You just can’t with the trajectory of the world, and it’s still not looking too great. You have to be able to have these conversations. And so in the book, there is an entire chapter dedicated to specifically leaders for exactly this reason.
Melissa Doman 13:51
And a lot of it has to start with self assessment, you have to ask yourself, what do I think about this topic? Am I comfortable talking about it? Why or why not? Why not? How did I arrive at these opinions? What are my actual concerns? Are there people in the business that do this? Well, that I could learn from? What do I want to accomplish?
Melissa Doman 14:11
That’s the most important thing. What do I want to accomplish by having these conversations with my team? And what sort of work do I need to do on myself as a leader in order to be able to do that? These are the sorts of questions that people need to ask themselves, instead of just tossing your leaders into a training and saying, Alright, see you on the other side?
Melissa Doman 14:31
No, you have to address where people are with how they feel about even doing it before teaching them how to do it. And leaders are people like everybody else, the last time I checked, and they’re allowed to have their own concerns, their own fears, their own questions, and it’s important to address that.
Melissa Doman 14:52
And while it is important that their influence as a leader is huge, it doesn’t. It doesn’t recuse them from the process of needing to discover where they are in relation to their readiness and willingness to do it?
Lindsay Recknell 15:05
Well, and can I also suggest that not only do they need to, but also they kind of get to, I do feel like it’s a bit of a privilege for us to, to have those conversations with us whom we are who we are influencing, being influenced by, you know, a lot of the basis, the foundation of the the reason that I do this work is to make those connections, to be proactive in our mental health, you know, we surround ourselves with all these humans every day, if we can, if we can get great at making these connections, so that we can flourish and feel supported.
Lindsay Recknell 15:43
That’s kind of a privilege that I get to have as your friend, or someone I’m building relationship with.
Melissa Doman 15:49
It really is. And I’m quite honest about the fact that these conversations may never happen in certain industries, and certain companies, for people that say, this must happen in every single industry in every single company, that is not the world we live in.
Melissa Doman 16:07
So for the organizations where it is possible. And these are these moments are available, and the budget is put towards equipping people to have these conversations and the organization not only sees the value, but they understand the human case, that is a privilege. There are plenty of industries and plenty of companies who might never do that. So for the companies that are for the people that are its privilege,
Lindsay Recknell 16:36
yeah, embracing it as a privilege. Amazing. So there are a lot of ways that is can be counterproductive in how we talk about mental health at work. Can we can we talk a little bit about some of the things to avoid perhaps in these kinds of conversations.
Melissa Doman 16:57
So we are short on time. So I will just do like a couple of that’s okay,
Lindsay Recknell 17:02
please give us a taste.
Melissa Doman 17:05
I will so you know, this is all in the book. But I’d say the two biggest ones that are worrying to me. And keep in mind, I know that these are done to go towards the same goal ish that you and I are going towards. However, how you do that, and the language you choose matters.
Melissa Doman 17:25
So there are some, you know, programs or are making a positive culture of mental health, or bringing your best self to work, or hack your mindset in 90 days, or choose happiness. That is a great way to make people feel like crap. And to make them feel like your negative emotions. And thoughts are not welcome here, you better get your bleep together. So you can perform at the level that we’re expecting.
Melissa Doman 17:55
Those programs also masquerade around as training and development, were building your resilience, or those other sort of Wellness Wednesday programs. They’re not only not effective, they make people feel bad, because they’re just not accurate. And they don’t portray the world we live in. And so those sorts of programs again, while well intended, they’re not really what people need. Were the were the wretched mental fitness programs. I don’t know who I need to write a letter to, to go back in time to stop that nonsense from ever happening.
Lindsay Recknell 18:37
Oh, so good
Melissa Doman 18:38
it’s just so it’s just like, like dripping toxic positivity. I’m like, Who do I write my strong letter to the school eight. But the thing is that there’s a lot of, you know, monkey see monkey do and following the leader based on what people see in the industries, but what if you’re following the wrong leader? So it’s spread like wildfire, and it’s masquerading around as mental health at work programs?
Lindsay Recknell 19:02
Well, and I mean, in people’s defense, they feel like they’re trying to do the right thing.
Melissa Doman 19:06
Lindsay Recknell 19:07
right. They’re trying their best. So
Melissa Doman 19:10
Lindsay Recknell 19:10
So tell us what to do instead?
Melissa Doman 19:14
Oh that’s the golden question, isn’t it? When it comes to those sorts of programs, if companies are considering having them? The question I would encourage them to ask themselves is is the program that we’re going to choose unintentionally, make people feel as though we are taking advantage of the vulnerable is going to make people feel that they can’t actually show up as they are? And we’re setting an unrealistic expectation for who we hoped for them to be.
Melissa Doman 19:52
The programs that should be chosen to come in are not only teaching people what the topics are and in the context in which we currently exist. Because the before time, ie pre COVID, that’s all dead. We’re in a totally different plane of existence now. So anybody who’s not updating these conversations based on how the world is evolving, is already a dinosaur. And so it’s how do we educate people on what these terms mean, what they mean in the context of the world that we live in, how to assess where their opinions and perceptions came from this topic.
Melissa Doman 20:34
And then most importantly, realistically, equipping them with the language with the skill set with the knowledge but how to not only support others, constructively within the remit of work, remember, we are not training people to be therapists, doctors, or lawyers, or any of that. We’re training them just to how to have empathic conversations with work peers, that’s it. And also, equipping them on what to do if it gets a bit hairy. What to do, if the conversation doesn’t go, Well, who to speak to, you have to give people the foundation or the can’t build the house.
Melissa Doman 21:13
So it’s about kind of taking a gentle peek at what’s behind the curtain, and then getting them to come on stage. And, you know, teach them to do the ARIA.
Lindsay Recknell 21:26
from peeking behind the curtain to singing operatic, you know, Arias feels like a journey.
Melissa Doman 21:34
It is a Journey. That’s the point.
Lindsay Recknell 21:37
So at the beginning of this journey, where do we start,
Melissa Doman 21:43
you got to start by looking at yourself, okay. Because if you’re not looking at your own opinions and perceptions around the topic, and how you think it will go, what your fears are updating some of those beliefs, if they’re a bit outdated, you can’t learn the skill set, because that is building a house on a broken foundation. That’s what that is, it’s not seeing the sinkhole that’s underneath.
Lindsay Recknell 22:10
So the foundation is broken. We as frontline workers, managers, we can see the sinkhole, we see the ground sinking, how do we engage our senior leadership to do the work that they need to do as well to buy in to how important this work is?
Melissa Doman 22:33
Hire people like you and me to come help them understand. No, no, in all seriousness, though, before you can do any sort of initiatives, or rollout plans, or comms plans, or anything like that, if you don’t have alignment and buy in from senior leadership, or them being prepared to participate in the conversation, I wish you the best of luck. I do.
Melissa Doman 23:01
Because the folks in senior leadership teams, and there are many who feel as though they are exempt from this. That is a massive obstacle. And so before doing any sort of leadership training or anything like that, I like to do a kind of a leadership listening session of sorts, basically taking a temperature on where they all are and where they’re willing to go. That has to be mapped out first.
Melissa Doman 23:32
And there is always a reason, always a reason were in really anybody but senior leaders for why they feel they don’t want to or can’t or won’t participate in this conversation. And without uncovering that reason. You’re out of luck.
Lindsay Recknell 23:54
Well, and that’s kind of key. So if I’m thinking about managers or leaders that are listening to this, and they’re thinking, Hey, I know this stuff works, I know what’s important. You know, you you folks have the ears of your executives, your leaders, and trying to figure out the why behind why they’re not. And sort of tackling those objections. I think that’s really, really, I think it’s really, really important and really, really key. I mean, easier just to hire, Melissa, you know?
Melissa Doman 24:25
Lindsay Recknell 24:27
Melissa Doman 24:27
I promise I don’t bite hard for those.
Lindsay Recknell 24:31
For those that are really, you know, trying to make the culture shift in the organization. Having those hearing truly hearing what people are trying to say what their objections are, and addressing those right up front I think, is really important, really key.
Melissa Doman 24:46
You know, what’s interesting is I even discovered that myself, like years ago, so when I transitioned from clinical to organizational psych, and I was doing the traditional, you know, out of the box stuff, which I still do around, you know, emotional intelligence, constructive conflict team dynamics, learning to play nice with each other at the office, you know, I still do those sessions, I love it.
Melissa Doman 25:10
But I distinctly remember, even before I got into the mental health at work sub specialty, that when I realized it was even an option, because of a previous contract I was on before I became self employed, said, Hey, you have a background and clinical site, will you do a mental health at work program for us?
Melissa Doman 25:28
So yeah, so I did it. And then when I was doing a separate session for leaders only, and even I made the mistake of just jumping straight into, hey, here’s how to talk about mental health at work with your teams. And they said, Well, this is all well and good, but we are terrified. Can we please talk about that first. And I was like, Oh, my God, I assumed they would just be ready. I’m an idiot, I should have done that part first. And that was way, way back, before even the beginning.
Melissa Doman 26:06
And ever since then, I learned a very valuable lesson, that just because people are in a leadership position where they own a company or whatever it is, just because they have a title doesn’t mean that they are ready to receive that information. And that is fine. They should it should be sense check where they are. First, there are people first or leader second.
Lindsay Recknell 26:30
That is, so it’s so important to remember, People first leader second. And I think that I think we always forget,
Melissa Doman 26:39
oh, my gosh, I have lost count of the number of times that I have very kindly said to lots of different people, our new leadership needs to do better, our CEO needs to do better. And I go, Well, that might be true. But don’t you as well. Doesn’t everybody? Isn’t this a collective thing where it takes a chorus of voices as opposed to just the people who have manager on their title? Yeah, I guess.
Lindsay Recknell 27:08
Melissa Doman 27:09
It has to be. It has to be everybody. It can’t just be them because then it absolves individuals of their own responsibility. You know, keep in mind, guys, everybody in the workplace is a chronologically aged adult. So everybody’s gonna do their part manager or not.
Lindsay Recknell 27:27
Love it shared responsibility for our collective wellness.
Melissa Doman 27:30
Lindsay Recknell 27:31
Yes, love it. Mel, this has been a fantastic conversation. Can you please share with everyone how they can get a hold of you when they need you to have these conversations, especially with their senior leadership?
Melissa Doman 27:43
Yes, most definitely. I would love to come in and have a kind but firm conversation with your leaders about having constructive, realistic conversations about mental health at work. Best place to find me is at my website, Melissadoman.com. Or you can find me on LinkedIn, or Twitter or Instagram or on all the socials. Please reach out. I’d love to hear from you.
Melissa Doman 28:11
And as much as I’m deeply appreciative that you tuned in to listen to this I will be even happier as I’m sure Lindsay would be to. If you took action with this information, whatever that looks like for you.
Lindsay Recknell 28:25
Absa frickin lutely, theory is great. Action is better.
Melissa Doman 28:29
Lindsay Recknell 28:31
I so appreciate you being here. We will link to all of the things in the show notes to make it really easy for folks, especially to your book, which is totally practical. It literally has scripts in it doesn’t it on? It does say I mean, could we go more practical than that? I don’t think so.
Melissa Doman 28:49
I wanted to make sure that there are sections in there of here’s some examples of what to say. Here’s what examples of what not to say here is why you want to say or not say those things. But please make the say or not say sound like you.
Lindsay Recknell 29:07
Yeah, brilliant, brilliant, super practical, which is what we’re all about. Thank you so much for sharing your brilliance with us. I can’t believe that our time together is already over. I could continue having these conversations with you forever. And I do I look forward to continuing our relationship and to continue to learn more from you. So thank you for spending your time.
Melissa Doman 29:26
Oh my gosh, my pleasure to be here. I am so happy that we found each other and we can learn from each other. And looking forward to next conversation.
Lindsay Recknell 29:35
Sounds amazing. Take care.
Lindsay Recknell 29:38
Thank you for listening to another episode of mental health in minutes. Melissa and I share such a passion for equipping people with the words to use in our workplaces and helping to raise collective wellness where we spent so much of our time. I love how she shared some of the counterproductive trends in workplace mental health and also gave us permission to try our best.
Lindsay Recknell 29:56
Give ourselves Grace if we get it wrong and recognize that the climate around mental health at work is continuing to evolve. Mel and I both believe in the power of our leaders to create psychologically safe workplaces and we know you do too, or you wouldn’t be listening to this.
Lindsay Recknell 30:11
If you loved this episode, please consider subscribing and leaving a review on your favorite podcast player. You can find this everywhere at mental health in minutes, as well as on the web at www.languageofmentalhealth.com. The thing we do best at mental health in minutes is open the door to conversations about mental health at work. And episodes like this give us real things we can try to truly make a difference. I know you’re making a difference at your workplace, or you’d really like to be, or you wouldn’t be listening to podcast episodes like these ones.
Lindsay Recknell 30:39
I’d love to help you accelerate your impact at work, help you really move the needle on mental health maturity in your workplace and get people to a place where they’re feeling less stressed, more fulfilled, and able to integrate work and life in a way that works for them and your organization. Being a people leader is especially hard right now, you might feel like you’re managing both up and down the corporate ladder. And if the thought of figuring out how to best support your people and yourself feels overwhelming and impossibly hard, let’s talk.
Lindsay Recknell 31:07
Let me help you by doing the heavy lifting with resources and materials, along with training and facilitation. And you can get back to doing what you do best engaging with and supporting your people. I have many ways to support you from full service hands on to guidance and support from afar. So let’s chat about what works best for you and your people.
Lindsay Recknell 31:26
As always, I’m here if you need me
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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