The Intersection of Physical and Psychological Health and Safety with Dave Ferro

The Intersection of Physical and Psychological Health and Safety with Dave Ferro

In the past, Occupational Health and Safety has mostly been focused on physical aspects, such as harassment, preventing accidents, and violence. But in more recent years, there’s been a push to include psychological safety in their responsibilities as well.

And according to OH&S consultant, Dave Ferro, there’s good reason for this. When organizations create an environment where people feel both mentally and physically safe to come to work, they see improved profitability, better employee retention, and improved productivity. Dave explains the benefits of proactively supporting employee wellbeing, as well as how to start enacting change in your organization even if you don’t have support from your upper management.

It’s time to start normalizing conversations about mental health the same way we do with conversations about physical health. Tune in!

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About Dave Ferro:

Dave Ferro is your support system. Dave is an OH&S consultant that provides his clients the tools they need to be assured in their procedures and confident in business. He believes in building collaborative relationships and fully understanding his client’s needs.

Dave is a strong believer in looking after the best interests of his clients. Having an OH&S Management System in place protects employers and their livelihood, as well as employees who have their boots on the ground.

To learn more, you can visit his website and connect with Dave on LinkedIn and Facebook.

Mentioned In This Episode:


Lindsay Recknell 0:07
Welcome to mental health and minutes where we open the door to conversations about workplace mental health, and help leaders and HR professionals create safe and innovative organizations where our employees and our companies thrive. I am your host Lindsay Recknell, a psychological health and safety advisor, a workplace mental health consultant, a speaker, facilitator and an expert in hope. Each episode of this show has three objectives, to discuss the future of mental health in the workplace. To identify the best most successful strategies for opening the door to mental health conversations at work, and to share the top ways we can engage our leadership in the workplace mental health conversation, and have them endorse and pay for a positive culture shift within our organization. If you’re listening to this podcast, you know that our people need us more than ever, but most of our organizations have a long way to go until supporting employee wellness is embedded in the culture of our workplaces. This episode is a resource you can use to start and continue workplace mental health conversations, and my guests will share their experiences and what’s worked for them.

Lindsay Recknell 1:09
Today’s guest is Dave Ferro, an occupational health and safety consultant that provides his clients the tools they need to be assured in their procedures and confident in their businesses. He believes in building collaborative relationships and fully understanding the client’s needs. Dave is a strong believer and looking after the best interests of his clients and understands that having an occupational health and safety management system in place protects employers and their livelihood, as well as employees who have their boots on the ground. Dave and I have a great conversation about the intersection of physical safety and mental safety that I think you’re really going to like. So let’s get to it. Hello, Dave, welcome to the show.

Dave Ferro 1:50
Thank you for having me today.

Lindsay Recknell 1:51
It is a real pleasure to have you I’m very excited for this conversation. And I’d love to start with a little bit of informal, talk about who you are, what you do and how you serve.

Dave Ferro 2:05
Okay, you know, who you are, can be quite the conversation, we all have a couple of different hats personal and work. So maybe on the personal side, you know, I’ve been married for 29 years, three children, I have a lot of weird hobbies, including Believe it or not playing the banjo and a bluegrass band. And I used to be the Latin and ballroom dance. So that’s kind of my non work side, on the worksite. I’ve been in occupational health and safety for about 25 years now. And I want you to call a Canadian registered safety professional. And I’m registered as an Emergency Medical Responder with the Alberta College of paramedics still, so I do some of that. And I serve on some volunteer boards and things. For example, I’m the chair of the Nate OHS diploma programs program advisory committee right now, I found over the years, it’s a fantastic thing to volunteer for some of these, you gain a lot more than you give to be quite honest. And the people I serve my client list is pretty diverse. So we deal with a lot of big firms, some international engineering companies. And lately I’ve really been enjoying working with some small local firms where you’ll have maybe a dozen employees. And it’s a whole different field with those guys. And it’s a lot of fun. So, yeah, pretty diverse that way.

Lindsay Recknell 3:23
I love it. I mean, you’ve got creativity, you’ve got some pretty diverse professional interests, a, I feel like all of those things would really contribute to how you support your clients, especially when it comes to a psychological health and safety perspective. Because I feel like with with that wide range of experience, you could really meet your meet those people where they were at, and help them to really embrace their personal diversity, to contribute to the organizational diversity that they must experience in their day to day job.

Dave Ferro 4:00
You know, yeah, we are kind of the sum of our experiences. And really, you’ve kind of hit it there for anything to work, you really need to build a personal relationship first before you do any type of educating if you will. So the more you’re able to connect with someone on a personal basis, the easier it is to build some rapport and then get some changes to your programs and things. It sounds kind of funny, but when it comes to leadership, people like to take direction and leadership from people they like dealing with.

Lindsay Recknell 4:28
It doesn’t sound funny at all because this similar if we think about people we want to buy from or people we you know, take our pets to or the people we ask to watch our children, right we we do that with people we know like and trust and if we can find some sort of common ground or relate to people on that, that makes tons of sense to me. In your in your career in occupational health and safety. How have you seen that change over the last 20 plus years? especially as it relates to adding in a psychological health and safety aspect to it.

Dave Ferro 5:10
Okay, that’s a big question. I’ve seen massive changes in the industry over 25 years. Even this, especially on the physical health and safety side, the standards that we run right now, we would, are completely different than we used to run. If I tried to do business the way I did when I was starting, we would be run off the job sites to be quite honest. So as we learn, we add layers, and we get better psychological health and safety. Now, that is a bit of a mystery to all of our safety people. In the last few years, we’re starting to see more focus on things that are not traditional and safety. So for example, right now, some of the newer legislation that’s come out has us responsible for workplace violence and harassment, which would typically be more, I would think in an HR type of role. But nonetheless, safety people have inherited it. So we’re, we’re, we’re learning and psychological health and safety is something that’s 20 years ago, you know, your psychological health and safety was Yeah, forget about it, we’re gonna go have some beers. That was pretty much what you had, right? What we’re seeing now, especially in the larger companies is a real move towards EAP programs, employee family assistance. And we’re starting to see reference to these even in our orientations and our racial training for workers, which is completely different. In fact, with some of the big companies I’ve worked with, it’s gone. So far as you don’t get to start the job and bid the job unless you can prove you have a functioning AFAP.

Lindsay Recknell 6:40
I love that I can tell you how happy that makes me to see that kind of progress. You know, like you see the changes you’ve seen in the last 20 years, it’s super encouraging to hear that organizations are asking traditional physical safety people to make sure that they’re also considering the mental health or psychological safety of people on their worksite. So that makes me so happy. I can’t even tell you.

Dave Ferro 7:09
Cool. Yeah. And you know, it’s just good business, right? Well, you probably know the stats better than I do. It’s something like one in five, I think we’ll have a mental health problem or illness in Canada, and depression is about 5%, anxiety 4.6. So there’s something that could be out there debilitating between what 10 and 20% of our workforce. If we looked at that, from a physical injury or health point of view, we definitely take action. What’s amazing is it’s taken us this long to kind of realize it, and it is interesting that we’re doing this interview right after a bell, let’s talk de there. Mm, yeah, a lot of lot of information on this Well, yesterday,

Lindsay Recknell 7:48
I love initiatives like Bell, Let’s Talk Day, because of the awareness it brings to the industry because people like me, and people like you, we work in this space all day long every day. So we get exposed to some of the really great evidence and the really great statistics to support why this is so important. And sometimes people need the the data right to to justify maybe the spend or to justify the extra effort on employees or the extra administration or whatever. So I love the opportunity to share more of this with people outside of our industry, with organizational leaders to to raise collective wellness, right, if we can focus, if we could focus on our mental health, in the same way that we focused on our physical health over the last 20 plus years. I mean, we’re, we are just going to create a future better than today. There’s, there’s no, it’s indisputable.

Dave Ferro 8:48
You’ve kind of hit it. And in my own personal life, I’ve got one of my children that was having some pretty, a pretty significant mental health challenges. And I wanted to spend a little money on him and to get him into some programs and things and you know, he’d said that, you know, it’s too much money, I’m not worth it this and I said, you know, if your teeth were crooked, I would spend more than this on your teeth. And he said, you know, that makes some sense. You know, we’re we’re willing to go and put braces on ourselves for the 1000s of dollars. But there seems to be a real hesitancy to spend money on our own mental health. Isn’t it strange?

Lindsay Recknell 9:22
It is so strange. And that is the work that I’m doing that you’re doing to have these kinds of conversations to make. You know, talk about talking about going to see our psychiatrist as normal as talking about going to the orthodontist. There is no difference from a wellness perspective. We are taking care of our wellness in both cases. But there’s still such a stigma around talking about going to see a mental health professional as opposed to going to see a physical health professional.

Dave Ferro 9:54
Oh, you’re right. And we’re happy to see that that’s eroding a bit. If this were 10 years ago, I would never admit it. To anybody much less on a podcast that anybody in my circle had any mental health challenges much less myself, for example, you just those were things you hit and they were kind of family secrets. So you know, that’s those let’s talk type of initiatives really have a lot of value.

Lindsay Recknell 10:16
And what do you think? What do you think was the catalyst? If we think about your industry and occupation, occupational health and safety? What do you think was the catalyst to start the D stigmatization happening in organizations? Do you have any thoughts about that?

Dave Ferro 10:34
Well, that’s a good question. It’s interesting to see how companies have have changed over the last little while, they’ve started to really get an idea that they were more than just looking after the bottom line in money, we’ve there’s been a real push towards environmental stewardship and inclusion and good stewardship and community. And I think this is an outgrowth of that, where businesses realize that there is a real opportunity to help a lot of people. And they sort of see it as a bit of a moral duty to do it. There’s two aspects, the moral duty is definitely there. But when you start to look at the numbers, you can also very much make a profitability case for good mental health and your workers.

Lindsay Recknell 11:18
You absolutely can. And there is, study after study after evidence after evidence to support that. Even before COVID The the statistic, I think out of the Canadian Mental Health Association was for every dollar you spend on mental health support, you get $2.10, back on productivity on the bottom line, and, and those kinds of things. I mean, it makes good business sense now, let alone the benefits to our communities and all the other sort of anecdotal benefits that we know of as well.

Dave Ferro 11:58
Okay, those are interesting numbers I hadn’t heard put forth, but it does make sense. When I’ve been dealing with it. I’ve always framed it in terms of often I’m talking about employee retention. So it has some parallels for physical so we prevent physical incidents, again, because of the moral responsibility. But from a business case, especially now in construction, where a lot of my people are there is a shortage of skilled workers. And it’s going to get worse because most of our skilled workers are all gray haired fellows like me, they’re looking at retirement for the next 10 years, right. And if we have a physical injury, we actually lose quite often someone with skills and in fact, critical skills. So how long are they off? How do we replace the skill? What cost is there to productivity? And there’s a real cost, we don’t even know if we can get that person. Now, that’s not any different than somebody who leaves the job because of psychological or mental issue. We have the same loss of skill and retention, and no way to replace it. So you’re right. It’s just absolutely good business on so many fronts.

Lindsay Recknell 13:02
Can we talk a little bit more about retention? What are you seeing in organizations, on how they’re retaining great people, or what programs they’re putting into place to combat this thing that we’ve heard called the Great resignation?

Dave Ferro 13:22
That’s a it’s interesting trying to figure out how to retain staff because retaining someone like myself is very different than retaining someone who’s 22. They sometimes have a little different look at the world. My daughter and I often have this conversation, she’s, she’s in her 20s. So yeah, a lot of the companies that I’m working with, they tend to be remote. And so we find that folks my age are very used to working remotely work out of town we’ll put up with extended stays away from family. And our younger people typically don’t do that for very long. And it’s maybe a whole different level of experience and expectation. But I was first out of town the years ago, when I was an apprentice first married, the company I was with generously allowed us to make a five minute phone call every Wednesday home to our spouses, because long distance was expensive there. But if you can imagine that was enough for us back in the in the 90s, to feel that we’ve stayed in touch. And now if I’m not texting my wife every night and you know, perhaps having FaceTime and everything. I think that maybe we’re looking at human interaction and relationships is wanting to be closer. So I would say yeah, for retention, there’s part of that family aspect. People need to have shifts and things that are humane, and that don’t have them away for long, long periods of time. I think in general, people aren’t going to allow for that anymore. Other things that people are going to be really looking for in terms of retention are safety programs. And, you know, I’m a safety guy. So of course, this is the way I’m thinking. But if you’ve been to a site that is unsafe, You know, it’s unsafe, your attention is not going to be there. And I’ve been on those sites where people are worried about what’s happening next, who’s going to be hurt next. Interestingly enough sites that have poor safety records, almost always have lousy quality assurance quality control on their work. And they’re almost always not profitable and behind schedule. And I think the bottom line for all of these things is that a well planned well executed job will be safe, profitable, and have quality. So you have to build that in from the very beginning. And you’ll get your attention. People love working on a job where people are happy people love working on a job where things are going well, and you’re not doing great work. And they like to work on a job where people are not being taken out with an ambulance everyday or off work.

Lindsay Recknell 15:46
I love what you said about like, just just the idea of creating an environment where people feel safe to come to work, whether they are feeling safe, because there are physical safety protocols, you know, distances from machines or PPE that people have to wear, it makes me think, as you’re, as you’re talking in the language you’re using, I was applying it to from a mental health perspective, the language is exactly the same. Yet we don’t talk about the actions we take have not traditionally been to support our mental health, the way that it we speak about creating a safe environment from a physical health perspective. And it just, it’s interesting to me to see it through that lens. And I love conversations like this, because we’re helping to reduce the misunderstanding, we’re hoping to see things through a different perspective, which makes it a bit easier, I think, put the actions into place to support mental health. Just that shift in perspective, I think is really neat. So people who are listening, rewind, you know, the last five minutes of this of this episode, and as you hear Dave speak, think about it from a mental health perspective, the language is the same. And it’s just an interesting insight to hear you speak about it that way. And I think it’s, it’s cool for leaders to think about it that way as well. Something else you brought up there was the flexibility that employers are having to think about, you know, when they’re thinking about retention for fine folks like you with lots of experience, and the same kind of retention, or the same kind of retention programs that we need for our newer people into the workforce? Is there what opportunity do you think employers have to address the needs of both people, both groups of people, and everybody in between?

Dave Ferro 18:04
Well, I guess there’s a few things. Again, my brain sometimes get stuck on remote sites, because I’ve spent a lot of time on them. So some of the things that are really good, that help are, well, it’s just a good internet connection, right? And then make sure you get enough bandwidth, because what people aren’t expecting is, everybody gets off, they have supper, and suddenly everybody is on FaceTime, right? If you just see a massive spike, and it’s amazing how much that when it’s not working, what it does for mental health, I can’t talk to my wife can’t talk to my children. We’re seeing a lot of fatigue management stuff, too, out there to the fact that some of our projects are actually hiring fatigue management specialists to look at different shifts, to make sure that we’re not grinding our people into the ground the way we used to 20 years ago, you know, we’re roughed up construction workers, we could work 21 days, 12 hours, that’s just what we do, you know. And now we’re realizing that’s not quite there. They actually do in these camps put social programs together, too. So, you know, do we want to have an activity where, you know, whatever it is, is there going to be a movie night? Are we going to have a music jam night? Are we going to bring in somebody to show everyone how to use the gym. And COVID makes that a little harder, but sites that have those kind of social activities, and some of the largest ones even have social coordinators, believe it or not. And if you told me 20 years ago that in construction, we’d go to work somewhere with and they’d have a social activity coordinator for us the cap after work, I said, Are you crazy? And yet, here we are.

Lindsay Recknell 19:34
I love that. I absolutely love that. And, and why not? Why? I mean, we have social event coordinators in our lives. Why wouldn’t we have them especially at camp when people are up there 24/7 for 21 days in a row. You know, that makes a ton of sense to me. And how, like the exponential value that would bring to the camp life experience. I feel like would be, would far outweigh the cost?

Dave Ferro 20:05
Oh, certainly, yeah, absolutely. You know, people that are good morale makes for good safety too, right? Totally makes for good mental health.

Lindsay Recknell 20:13
Well, and then people feel like they’re more aware of protecting their colleagues, they’re more aware of, you know, reducing opportunities for dangerous situations, because they care so much more about themselves and the people around them, if they’re feeling good, they’re gonna, they’re just gonna respond in more proactive kind of ways as well.

Dave Ferro 20:36
The people that realize their company and their supervisors take care of them tend to look at the world a little bit different, too. Sometimes we tend to forget that our company becomes an entity unto itself in a way. And the way your company treats people is just a function of how your supervisors operate.

Lindsay Recknell 20:55
100% is absolutely. And if we think about some folks that are listening, that are working on site or have industry where, you know, it’s not a corporate office, but it’s it’s out there in the world, on site doing construction work, or mining or any of that kind of thing. And they aren’t experiencing some of these things that you’re talking about mental health is not something they talk about paying attention to the the ways we can support the growth of the people outside of their day to day job is not something that is a priority. What would you say to them? To help them engage the naysayers?

Dave Ferro 21:46
Mm hmm. You know, the, there’s a couple ways to affect change. One is, as you say, to engage the the naysayers, right? And depends who those naysayers are, right? It’s different if they’re above you on the chain, the chain, I suppose. And, you know, you can certainly make a business case, you can do things like that. But again, without building the relationship, first people don’t want to listen. And what I like to tell people too, is even if you don’t have the support of everyone around you, there’s no reason that you can’t create your own small microcosm of good healthy workspace. And there’s a few things maybe I wouldn’t mind talking about for that. Let’s see if you have a moment on it. And these are things really, I learned when I was young, and I learned from my father. And if you can imagine I’d have I’d have to paint the picture of him a little bit. His name was Aurelio Pietro Farrell, so you know, good Italian name. And he was about 215 pounds of muscle and just an old school construction worker. But the way that he ran his job was very different, I think, than most people at the time, right. This was the days when people were yelling, and you do this and giving orders and, and I even got to the point that I wrote on my blog post and post the bottom. And one of the big ones I found with him as he was always humble, so you should never think that you’re more important than the next guy. And from a mental health perspective, one thing that he always did was he always tried to leave other people with dignity. And this would be everything. This would be coaching, this would be correction, even if he had to fire somebody, someone that’s it wasn’t working out. He’d simply say, you know, this isn’t working, I’m afraid to have to send you home, I’m sorry. Then there was no drama and it worked. And the other big thing there is workplaces do have to be fun. You know, a fun workplace is good for your mental health. And with construction, we were just banging nails all day. But what we used to do, I think, well, you’d have to understand it was a crew of mostly Italians there so I think when we did the we did the McCleary United Church, there was a rally Oh, it was barrio as Reno and Dave, I didn’t get the Italian name because my mom’s more Irish Scottish. But we would sing all day. If you could believe that one. That’s something that’s lost is having fun on the job. And they were I remember him singing Puff the Magic Dragon don’t know why that song. And everything I could think of an Italian and the one I’ll always associate let Donna and Bobby Lee was my father. He would sing it steady. I didn’t realize it was from the opera Rigoletto until I was much older and became a fan of such things. But that song always reminds me of my dad. So you know, there is great ways to and people other people will see that on the job that your crew is functioning and working and it’s fun and it kind of spreads. No good practices can be infectious that way.

Lindsay Recknell 24:35
It absolutely is. And it can be I think when you’re talking about singing, I don’t know if you know the Navy Seal, David Goggins, but he he wrote a book and he has a podcast and he talks about his experience in in Navy SEAL training. And there’s a moment where it’s the end of hell week Is there training. And he is either under a canoe or in a canoe or laying in the ocean, with sand and all the places. And everybody is expecting him and his he and his team to fail. And someone starts singing. And they’re all looking at each other, like, what are you doing? We are at the edge of our capacity and you are singing, I’m sorry. But it is the thing that kept them going. It is the thing that joined them together that created this sense of camaraderie and strength. And all of the things like the power of of those kinds of experiences cannot be underestimated. And if big, strong, you know, men like Navy SEALs, and men and women like Navy SEALs, can talk about an experience the power of that kind of connection. I mean, it’s just awesome. It’s just awesome. Awesome to see.

Dave Ferro 26:05
Yeah, well, this was when I was 16. And now I’m 50. And I still remember that job like it was yesterday. So it’s amazing how that imprints itself on you. And you won’t forget.

Lindsay Recknell 26:14
No, no. Yeah. And that’s very, very cool. And these, like these things you’re talking about, like having great broadband, internet and creating opportunities for shameless singing? You know, those are simple. Those are not hard things for organizations to do. And often, I hear well, it’s so complicated. There’s where do we start? Well, honestly, people, you start with creating an environment where this kind of simple stuff can be created can be introduced.

Dave Ferro 26:51
Oh, there’s lots of ways to have fun on the job. Those are just a few examples. I always try to keep everything I do a little bit light hearted. And I’m, sometimes I’m known for it to the point that on the last job, a good friend, I got to know him on that job gave me a parting gift of some sort of a joke book, he said, I think you’d appreciate this. But you can keep your sense of humor and all things and a good sense of humor, and not getting down that way will affect the health, mental health of people around you as well.

Lindsay Recknell 27:23
Yeah, good leadership, equals those kinds of conversations and that way to connect with people,

Dave Ferro 27:31
sometimes as leaders, we take ourselves too seriously, I think. And we feel that if we don’t protect this very competent, very severe sort of Persona, that people won’t think that we’re capable. And really, it’s quite the opposite. It’s probably the worst thing we could be doing.

Lindsay Recknell 27:50
If we can relate to our people, like actual people, I mean, that’s the only way to go.

Dave Ferro 27:58
Maybe, you know, picture yourself at a dinner party in your own living room, would you? Would you treat your guests that way? And speak to them in that manner? If you wouldn’t, maybe your management style needs to change?

Lindsay Recknell 28:08
That’s a whole other podcast.

Lindsay Recknell 28:15
Is there a parting message you would like to leave with our listeners today?

Dave Ferro 28:22
A parting message? Yeah. There’s so many things a person could say. But I think

Dave Ferro 28:30
I think the parting message is, you know, mental health, we really need to think about it. And if we start thinking of our mental health in the same way we do is our physical health we have a real when. So when we’re doing our standard things at the beginning of a project, like we typically do a risk analysis, we do a hazard analysis. We talk about injuries, emergency response, we talk about, are we going to be able to get the lumber there and logistics, it wouldn’t hurt to consider mental health right there in that initial planning and that initial hazard assessment, because often we use risk scenarios. So instead of the scenario being, you know, someone is gonna fall and get hurt, and we do we have adequate ambulance to get them out. We need that. But how about a scenario like we don’t have adequate internet for people to communicate with their families? We, what if we have mental health troubles on our site, because we don’t have programs to assist people what happens if we if this and if we put it in just like any other hazard without any stigma, then we put in our corrective actions and move right along.

Lindsay Recknell 29:36
I love it. It again, it feels so simple. It doesn’t have to be hard people. I love that thank you very, very much is there tell us the best way that people can get ahold of you when they want your expertise?

Dave Ferro 29:50
Probably the best way to get a hold of me is just through the contact page on my website. And that’s d f DFS and de Ferro de ferrosi. 60 That’s

Lindsay Recknell 30:01
awesome. And we will link to all of that in the show notes as well, to make it real easy for people to get in touch with you, Dave, thank you so much for sharing your brilliance with us. A lot of what you talked about seems so simple like I keep talking about, but honestly, a lot of this stuff is not spoken about out loud. So often we think about physical safety, especially traditional OHS, folks like yourself, and I love to see the intersection and how your industry is growing to also include mental health at work. So thank you for being here with us.

Dave Ferro 30:34
Thank you very much. And just to put one last thought in you mentioned simple, and that’s been my whole career. If you can make things simple and doable, they’re going to people are going to do them. So same thing in mental health. Thanks, Lindsay. It’s been an absolute pleasure to be here with you today.

Lindsay Recknell 30:50
I will look forward to continue our conversation. Take care, Dave,

Dave Ferro 30:53
thank you.

Lindsay Recknell 30:55
Thank you for listening to another episode of mental health in minutes. I’m very hopeful for the future of psychological safety at work. After hearing Dave speak about the evolution of physical safety in the workplace. We talked about the truly simple things organizations can do to enhance the experience of employees working on job sites and away from their families, and how a little change in perspective can make all the difference and how we continue to advance these kinds of conversations. Dave and I both believe in the power of our leaders to create psychologically safe workplaces and we know you do too, or you wouldn’t be listening to this.

Lindsay Recknell 31:25
If you’d love this episode, please consider subscribing and leaving a review on your favorite podcast player. You can find this everywhere at mental health in minutes, as well as on the web at The thing we do best at mental health in minutes is open the door to conversations about mental health at work. And episodes like this give us a real things we can try to truly make a difference. I know you’re making a difference at your workplace or you’d really like to be, but you wouldn’t be listening to podcast episodes like these ones. I’d love to help you accelerate your impact at work, help you really move the needle on mental health maturity in your workplace and get people to a place where they’re feeling less stressed, more fulfilled and able to integrate work and life in a way that works for them and your organization. Being a people leader is especially hard right now, you might feel like you’re managing both up and down the corporate ladder. And if the thought of figuring out how to best support your people and yourself feels overwhelming and impossibly hard. Let’s talk let me help you by doing the heavy lifting with resources and materials along with training and facilitation. And you can get back to doing what you do best engaging with and supporting your people. I have many ways to support you from full service hands on to guidance and support from afar. So let’s chat about what works best for you and your people. As always, I’m here if you need me

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