This far into 2021, we’re definitely seeing a shift towards more human centered workplaces. People are encouraged to show up to work as their authentic selves. And while this is great for both employees and organizations, it can bring about a new set of challenges. How can a team truly connect in a virtual or hybrid setting? What can leadership offer employees to make them feel recognized and safe?
Cathy Lim joins me on the podcast today to share her professional insight on how leaders can effectively take care of their employees, whether by offering employees resources and stress management, or just being open and honest with their teams. By taking small, simple steps, organizations can support employee wellness and foster more authentic connections within teams.
Listen in to learn more.
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About Cathy Lim:
Cathy Lim is the Director of Human Resources for PopReach Games and the volunteer Executive Director for the Vancouver Asian Film Festival. Her passion to engage with employees and provide a safe and inclusive workplace has resulted in multiple Great Place to Work accolades, most notably Canada’s 50 Best Workplaces, and Canada’s Best Workplaces for Inclusion, for Women, and for Mental Wellness. Cathy also teaches workshops for multiple non-profits and schools year-round, she loves to educate and empower everyone around her, especially those from underrepresented groups.
To learn more, you can connect with Cathy on LinkedIn.
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Lindsay Recknell 0:07
Welcome to Mental Health in Minutes, where we open the door to conversations about workplace mental health, and help leaders and HR professionals create safe and innovative organizations where our employees and our companies thrive. I am your host Lindsay Recknell, a psychological health and safety advisor, a workplace mental health consultant, speaker, facilitator and an expert in hope.
Lindsay Recknell 0:28
Each episode of this show has three objectives, to discuss the future of mental health in the workplace. To identify the best, most successful strategies for opening the door to mental health conversations at work, and to share the top ways we can engage our leadership in the workplace mental health conversation, and have them endorse and pay for a positive culture shift within our organizations.
Lindsay Recknell 0:49
If you’re listening to this podcast, you know that our people have need us more than ever, but most of our organizations have a long way to go until supporting employee wellness is embedded in the culture of our workplace. This episode is a resource you can use to start and continue workplace mental health conversations, and my guests will share their experiences and what’s worked for them excited to get going. So let’s dig in.
Lindsay Recknell 1:11
Today’s guest is Cathy Lim. She is the Director of Human Resources for pop reach games, and the volunteer executive director for the Vancouver Asian Film Festival. Her passion to engage with employees and provide a safe and inclusive workplace has resulted in multiple great place to work accolades, most notably Canada’s 50 best workplaces, and Canada’s best workplaces for inclusion for women and for mental wellness. Cathy also teaches workplaces for multiple nonprofit, workshops for multiple nonprofits and schools a year round. She loves to educate and empower everyone around her, especially those from underrepresented groups.
Lindsay Recknell 1:47
Welcome to the show, Cathy.
Cathy Lim 1:51
Thank you so much for having me.
Lindsay Recknell 1:52
It is such a pleasure to have you here. I had the pleasure of hearing you speak on a panel at the human resource professional association of Ontario’s conference a month or so ago, I guess. And I was super impressed with the work that you’re doing at pop reach and in your community initiatives, mostly the practicality of it all. But can you share with us a little bit about why you’re so passionate about this work?
Cathy Lim 2:18
Well, to be honest, I’ve been in HR for almost 20 years, and mainly in the tech space, which is pretty stressful. There’s a lot of pressure, demands, tight deadlines. And generally speaking, especially in video games, it’s not known for being very safe, inclusive, non toxic environments. So everywhere I work, anywhere that hires me, they know that that’s my mandate to like make this an amazing place to work safe workplace. I myself suffer from mental health issues. One of my stepsons is autistic with ADHD.
Cathy Lim 2:53
And I see it everywhere. And there’s always been this stigma about mental wellness. And I really want people to know that it’s okay, you’re not alone. There’s nothing to be ashamed of. And, as a result of that, you know, when I’m open about things, when our senior leaders in the company are open about issues, like even popper, each one of our senior executives, you know, he really talks about his autistic son. And that just opens the door for you know what, this is a safe place to talk about things and to open up and be vulnerable, because when the leaders are vulnerable, everyone else will follow if a leader is cold, or calculated or, you know, fake, perfect all of that, then it’s not as transparent. It’s not a real and I think that’s one of the reasons why people do gravitate towards me. I’m not a professional speaker in any way.
Cathy Lim 3:43
But I pretty much do one or two workshops, every single month for multiple associations and nonprofits and schools. And I always say right off the bat, I’m not a professional speaker, but I have a lot of life experience. And I and I just want people to, to learn what I’ve learned over the last 20 years. And so my biggest mantra is take care of your employees, make them feel safe, and they will do their best work for you if they feel recognized and safe.
Lindsay Recknell 4:11
Absolutely, I couldn’t agree more. You take care of the lives of your people, they will absolutely take care of the life of your organization. Hmm. Yeah, that’s amazing. And I love what you say about leaders needing to speak up so that it creates a safe space for everybody else to feel like they can speak as well.
Lindsay Recknell 4:27
And so as a senior leader, yourself, is there something particular you say or a message that you help your colleagues get over that uncomfortable feeling of sharing because, you know, by the time you’re in the senior leadership levels, it’s likely that you’ve been through a through a number of cultures maybe that say, No, no, we have to stay professional. We can’t talk about our personal lives. You know, how do you, how do you help them get over that?
Cathy Lim 4:56
Usually, and honestly, I will be honest, it hasn’t always been successful at different organizations I’ve worked with and I didn’t last very long whether I walked out or whether I get fired. But if I can find employers that embrace what I can do, even if they’re not doing it, at the moment, they bring me on knowing that that’s what I can do, like literally.
Cathy Lim 5:18
So it starts with me, like, usually when I come into a new company, I always look at the benefits plan. And if it’s weak, I will make changes I will, even at popplets I’ve only been here a few months, and I sort of made a few improvements for benefits plan, reminded our staff what our benefits are, you know, like, oh, did you know we even we have critical illness coverage? Do you know that we actually cover fertility drugs, do you know this and most people are like, I don’t know any of it. And, you know, reminding ourselves, you know, you have $800 a year for psychology or counseling, you have all these other benefits.
Cathy Lim 5:53
And when I talk about the psychology or accounting, I literally put in the email announcement that went to the whole company in brackets, hello, anxiety it’s me. Right. And I really want people to know, especially during COVID, you know, if you have any semblance of any sort of mental health issue or disorder, COVID has completely exacerbated it, kind of 100%. So if you are someone like me, I have anxiety, depression, it’s magnified time for pen during COVID. So I’m putting that out there to the staff, then they’re like, Oh, I also have taken a bunch of different workshops and attended lots of workshops, and read lots of articles and online training and this and that.
Cathy Lim 6:33
So I kind of made my own version of a managing stress workshop. You know, how to, how to see what your stress is the star method and then and then I also talk about different sort of thoughts. Here’s the 10 most common different thoughts like why inclusion or catastrophizing? So difficult people know that. These are some of the triggers what you know, what’s causing these stresses? What are the symptoms? How do you manage it? How do you release stress?
Cathy Lim 6:58
And knowing that, if you, you know, a lot of, you know, I get I’m not a professional, but reminding people that if you react a certain way under stress, Where’s it coming from? How do you figure that out, you know, go get help, if you need help, you know, I have this whole hashtag make therapy cool at work. It’s like, you break your arm, you go to the doctor, you break your arm, you go to the doctor, right?
Lindsay Recknell 7:22
I love that hashtag make therapy Cool. Yes, that’s amazing.
Lindsay Recknell 7:27
Um, something you said there about it being okay to sort of to not feel okay. Often we don’t, we think if our arm isn’t broken, it must not be that bad. And one of the messages that I think that you would also align with is that it, if it matters to you what matters, right? It doesn’t have to be a big catastrophe for you to go get help with it. If you are just not feeling yourself, go talk to somebody about that, go reach out for help about that, um, is that a philosophy that you share?
Cathy Lim 8:04
Of course, I see that that’s one of the things I do as well. And every company I work for, I put together if it’s a company intranet, or you know, a common source of information, I’ve, I’ve put together like a whole list of resources, most of them are free, a lot of them are government supported, or the Canadian Mental Health Association, the cmha is amazing. So like crisis services, Canada, addictions, resources, bounce back, not myself today. Better help peer support Canada, there’s so many resources out there that people just don’t know about.
Cathy Lim 8:38
So if I can get it doesn’t cost me money, it doesn’t cost the company money to put that out there and say, here’s the top, you know, 15 different resources that you or anyone, or any of your loved ones may need. And that’s one thing I also emphasize to my employees. And I think that kind of opens the door as well. It’s not just for our employees, it’s for anyone you know, or love in your life that may need help, please feel free to pass this information along.
Lindsay Recknell 9:03
That part’s brilliant. I think we, that gets missed a lot, right? We talk about supporting our employees, but our employees go home at the end of the day, and they notice their spouse, their kids are struggling as well. I love that you I mean, these resources are available. And it’s nice that you have a central place that you can direct them to.
Lindsay Recknell 9:21
Do you see that as a, like an evolving trend? So if we think about the future of work, do you think that that’s something that benefits providers are more readily providing these days? Like typically, I think my benefits provider is going to give me my glasses, my, you know, major dental, and my prescriptions? Are you seeing more of a trend towards more mental health services being provided?
Cathy Lim 9:45
Yes, for sure. The benefit of a provider our youth right now they’re actually putting together a list of available like counselors, like city by city region by region, which is something that I actually did on my own. I created an entire directory across Canada of about 40 to 50 different psychologists with different specialties like postpartum, or work life balance or addictions or, you know, grieving, you know, loss and grieving, you know, there’s, you know, going through divorce. So as he created a whole directory of psychologists who are available to take new patients, because I find the barrier of entry is for someone who’s never gotten help before.
Cathy Lim 10:27
And especially with COVID, it’s been really hard. Like, there’s, our counselors and psychologists are so busy, if everyone’s calling them more, which is great. But it also means if I randomly call the first five people on a random list or directory, and they all say sorry, I can’t see you for two months on book, then that just discourages the person from moving forward.
Cathy Lim 10:48
So why not remove that barrier of entry and give people here because we have employees across Canada, in every province, here’s like 10, or five or 10, available psychologists that are all taking to patients and then next, you know, two weeks or so
Lindsay Recknell 11:03
Yeah, that’s huge. I remember, four years ago, you finally get up the courage to call someone, and then you get the, sorry, you’re on a waitlist, or someone will call you back, and then nobody calls you back. And you have to take, like, double the effort and double the courage to call again, removing that barrier to entry is huge.
Lindsay Recknell 11:21
So for any leaders that are listening, whatever you could do to remove those seemingly simple barriers to entry, but I think it’s the least amount of friction that stops us from doing these things.
Cathy Lim 11:33
Lindsay Recknell 11:33
Cathy Lim 11:33
Of course. Absolutely.
Lindsay Recknell 11:35
That’s super brilliant. Um, so one of the questions I get asked a lot is, how do I open the door to these conversations? I mean, just saying, I feel sad today feels awkward. And again, with that little bit of friction, it kind of gets in the way. What do you say if people ask you that? How do you open the door to those conversations?
Cathy Lim 11:57
Usually, it also depends on like the sick or leave policy, emergency leave. So in the company that I work for, I usually try to change the word to wellness day instead of sick day, because not everyone equates mental sickness as physical illness. If I have the flu, yeah, I’m calling in sick. But if I feel down or not myself, do I call in sick or not? Right?
Cathy Lim 12:18
So again, removing that barrier, it’s just a wellness day or an emergency day to say, if you’re not feeling good mentally then at best would be an emergency day. So at top rates, we offer seven per year paid days, and if for any reason for you or your family member, because if my spouse is not having a good day, or my kid is sick, it’s fine, I’m covered. So putting it out there as well, like, Hey, we’re going to rename our sick day to wellness day or personal day. And these are all the different reasons you can use.
Cathy Lim 12:47
And that way, if someone called in sick, they’re not having to feel like they’re lying. And to be honest, whenever people call in sick with me and my team, I always ask, are you okay? Are you mentally okay? Are you? Are you emotionally? Okay? Are you physically okay? Like, what’s going on? Like, what can I help you with?
Lindsay Recknell 13:03
I love that part, what can I help you with, because often we start with wanting to solve the problem, when really, someone just maybe just wants an opportunity to talk out loud. And by just approaching it from a place of curiosity really helps to support to give a space to support. And that kind of brings to mind the whole walking the talk thing.
Lindsay Recknell 13:25
So we often say, you know, come and talk to me, come and talk to me. But if somebody doesn’t feel comfortable coming to you, as their leader, it is likely you’re not walking the talk. What suggestions do you have for people who may not be so self aware that they’re not actually walking the talk? What are some things to look for in their own behavior?
Cathy Lim 13:45
Definitely, if they’re withdrawn or different, you can usually tell and this is actually how I actually combat this by ensuring that my managers and my teammates are doing meaningful effective one on ones at least every other week, but their employees and I only they’re trained, they know now the first question is, how are you? Are you happy? Right. And that is just to get the conversation going.
Cathy Lim 14:11
It also if you’re in these one on ones, I always encourage my leads and whenever I teach my for myself workshops at the office as well. I always like to use visualization techniques, especially in the creative industry, you know, lots of artists here and designers. I always tell people to let people vent. Sometimes they just don’t want a solution. They just need to event so I always try to give the example of Imagine if you are taking a big gulp of milk and then you realize it’s sour. We do not feel better if you spat it out right away, or are you going to keep it in your mouth so if I only think tell everybody I work with even anyone I teach workshops to it’s like, if you’re holding on to negative feelings of any kind or frustrations is like keeping that sour milk in your mouth. That’s not going to feel good. It’s going to keep getting more rotten and warm and disgusting. Spit it the EFF out, right?
Cathy Lim 15:11
And that’s what I tell my leads, like, let people vent. Yeah, right. It’s like, if anything that’s concerning. Do you have any obstacles? Are there any roadblocks I can remove? You know, with your personalized going, Okay. No, talk to me. And then generally speaking, if the leads can feel like something’s wrong, but the employee is not talking about it to them. And I also do one on ones with every single employee every few months, checking in, how are you doing? Are you happy in this company? If you’re not, let’s talk about it. If you need to look for another job, because we can’t fix whatever is not making you happy, I will personally help you find another job. I will be the best reference for you.
Cathy Lim 15:45
Again, having that open transparency, like I never want people to hide behind my back and go do interviews, I want to know and that way I can help you, right? Not every not every job is for everyone. Not every person stays forever at any company. Keep that door open, keep it open, transparent and honest.
Lindsay Recknell 16:02
Everybody needs to work for pop reach clearly. Hearing you speak Hello, I want to come work for you.
Cathy Lim 16:09
My mantra in life. And this is why I’m so passionate about what I do and why I love my job and why HR is so important to me. And if you love your job, and the people you work with, that is literally most of your life than being happy. More time at work than anything else in life.
Cathy Lim 16:26
So if you’re not feeling those things, find it, find your passion, find that joy, I’m blessed to work in gaming, like people love games, you’re making people happy, you’re entertaining the world with the work you’re doing. You’re not, you know, like hooking stuff or building boring code for boring, you know, shipping companies or whatever, you’re making people smile.
Lindsay Recknell 16:47
Yeah, amazing. Yes. And we have like, I feel like there’s so much opportunity right now to actually fulfill those passions, you know, often we think, well, I don’t know where to go, or there’s, there’s no opportunity for me. But truly, there’s a ton of opportunity. I know that you did a lot of really innovative support things during COVID during the last two years. Talk to me about how you’ve supported your people over the last couple years.
Cathy Lim 17:14
Well, a lot of people definitely felt shocked, you know, going from being in the office together every day that you know, watercooler chat and beer Fridays and that camaraderie, especially in the creative environment was ripped away in the matter of like days. So, I saw that again, most of the things I try to do are low or no cost because like obviously, we you know, every company wants to watch their bottom line. But for example I created uflex or you know, company internal communication.
Cathy Lim 17:45
So I created a bunch of fun slack channels. So an appropriate we have stuff all over the world. We have stuff in India, in the UK, all over Europe, Toronto, and Vancouver. Everyone, almost everyone loves food. Almost everyone loves animals, almost everyone loves gaming games, and almost everyone loves TV shows and movies so I created a for fun Slack channel. So everyone around the world is posting photos of their cat or their dog or the pet turtle. They’re posting you know food, you know, pictures of the food that they made along with recipes to share. You know, we’re rating movies on a five star scale like I saw a free guy. I give it 4.5 stars. I love Ryan Reynolds to remind us that that movie reminded me of The Truman Show but a more modern funny take of it.
Cathy Lim 18:27
So you know having that sort of rapport building across You know, that’s cross boundary and cross continental I think means a lot as well and way more recognition. So on our general Slack channel that goes to the whole company, like any promotions, any baby announcements, wedding announcements that we’re celebrating, and then you have and then when you see 100 people react to it and you know, give crazy emojis. That is also quite, I think rewarding and inspiring for people to be like wow, I thought I got promoted at 100 people gave me a high five amazing write more virtual events like, you know, virtual socials, trivia games. I personally did a horrible job. I am tone deaf. I was the host and performer for a virtual name that tune karaoke contest.
Lindsay Recknell 19:21
Cathy Lim 19:22
And I was doing it it was different renditions, like literally, saying, I will always love you by Whitney Houston in death metal. And people hadn’t guessed the name of the song because I would scream and death metal. I will always love you. I would do robot versions of like, love songs. And I would rap. Like, you know, do you want to build a film and buy in frozen I rock that and people had to guess it was pretty funny.
Lindsay Recknell 19:47
Amazing. That’s hilarious. Now, what are you going to do to continue this in what I assume is a hybrid model moving forward eventually.
Cathy Lim 19:57
Well, our socials are now in person on Thursdays. But because COVID still has not gone away, you know, it’s optional for people to go in at any day of the week. So right now today, we have seven people in the office out of 25. in Vancouver, so what we actually do is that we actually set up a big monitor for all the people that are home to at least we can all be together. So there’s like, seven people in person and like 15, virtually, and we’re all like, talking and talking. And you know, we’re having beer and snacks and stuff.
Cathy Lim 20:29
So we’re doing our best and the people in Toronto that are a little bit more isolated, because they’re more scattered around around the province, but we try to schedule monthly, like epic others, like a lunch, we’ll pay for it go out, have lunch, have dinner, you know, just get together once a month.
Lindsay Recknell 20:43
So it sounds like you have really a lot of fun there. For anybody who’s listening who might be thinking, hmm, did they get any work done? What, what positive impact? Have you seen these programs have on your bottom line, you know, when your CEO says to you, oh, tell me tell me how this is helping my bottom line?
Cathy Lim 21:01
Well, especially for us in the creative industry, if you’re not happy, you’re not engaged, you’re going to do crap work. If you’re happy and engaged, you’re going to and you’re feeling the creative juices flowing, then good things will happen. And at the end of the day, COVID has introduced a whole new level of competitiveness in the job market, you know, before pre COVID, I would be competing. You know, for a programmer or a game designer, I will be competing against two or three studios locally for the same talent, I’m now competing with 100 around the world.
Cathy Lim 21:31
So how I convinced my execs to, you know, jump on my bandwagon is do you want people to feel, you know, love that work and support it and have fun and feel loyal and engaged with their coworkers? If they’re not, we’ll probably lose them. So do you want an exodus? I mean, there’s all these reports and statistics of like 60% of people and the workforce is, especially in tech, always looking like they’re talking to recruiters or they’re surfing job boards, because there’s so much more opportunity out there.
Cathy Lim 22:02
I mean, in one of my last companies, I lost the programmer to a company based in Costa Rica, he could work remotely permanently in DC. And he’s going to get one month paid all expenses paid trip to Costa Rica for him and his wife. I said, Can I come? Hello, can you refer me? So definitely, you know, making sure employees are engaged, and loyal. Because if you have, if you lose, you know if our turnover, or if our voluntary turnover goes double, which is any company that’s that’s sort of happening, that’s going to hurt our bottom line, right, the cost to replace the cost to train on board, the risk of a person not working out, and then you’re looking at six to 12 months of any sort of delay in our product getting released depending on who’s gone.
Cathy Lim 22:51
So you want to make sure your people are taken care of and feel safe. And oftentimes, many of the companies that work for bigger studios try to poach way more money. And a lot of them don’t, we have lost some, you know, when a company a bigger when a big fish comes to one of our employees and says I will double your salary, call me. So we’ve lost a few in my lifetime in the last little while.
Cathy Lim 23:16
But I also, on the flip side, have saved a lot of employees. They don’t want to go to these giant, nameless, faceless organizations where you’re one of 6000 developers and knowing what you do doesn’t matter. Whereas in a smaller company, everything you do matters. And that’s why Personally, I’ve been an HR for 20 years, I haven’t worked for a big company or enterprise sized company since 2005. I like knowing that I make a difference. Everything I do touches something and touches somebody, and I’m able to inspire and motivate and create change, positive change.
Lindsay Recknell 23:50
Yeah, well and really have impact and feel the value of what you’re doing, you know, both up and down the organization. That’s Yeah, sounds incredible. I’m not joking. I want to come work for you. And the last thing I want to talk about is the technology actually to support your Yeah, to support hybrid workforce moving forward because you know, we talk a lot about knowing what we what we need to do, but the How is often really complicated.
Lindsay Recknell 24:19
So you talked about, you know, slack channels and having a big big TV screen so that you can stay connected. Is there any other technology things that you’re doing or would suggest other organizations do to keep that connection happening?
Cathy Lim 24:32
Well, definitely like, you know, video calls, team meetings, you know, encouraging people to be on camera. From a tech perspective, I mean, there are some really good HR tools that will help track, for example, our tool, we can send out a monthly employee pulse surveys, like literally two questions surveys, like think the question is, you know, based on how you feel at pop rates, how likely are you to refer is a good place to work to get one to 10? And then once you answer it, you know what’s so great? Or what can we fix or improve?
Cathy Lim 25:07
So we send out, we can send that out monthly or quarterly. And we can sort of get in, it’s all anonymous, and then over time we can gauge are the scores going up? Or is going down and again, I do one on ones with everyone, I know what’s going on. And people are pretty open with telling me what we need to change. And when they start seeing the change actually come to fruition, then you’re done. You’ve bought there, you have that credibility.
Cathy Lim 25:32
Now. Again, walk the talk, I hate companies that don’t walk the talk. That’s why I actually made a big rant on my LinkedIn a few months ago about like, I all these companies are posting, like se and hate and BLM and indigenous lives matter. I don’t care. What are you actually doing? Are you donating? Are you having these conversations at work? Are you implementing DNI initiative? What are you doing? You know, not just we stand in solidarity like that crap to me,
Lindsay Recknell 26:00
well, and also when you ask people, what they would like, what kind of feedback, what kind of changes you actually have to do those things. Didn’t make the changes you have to implement the suggestions or at least make them feel that you heard them and you’re working on it. I think that’s where organizations fall down a lot too. They have the best intentions and then life gets in the way or work gets in the way. And they don’t follow through with other things.
Cathy Lim 26:22
Yeah, we use JIRA you know, we’re an agile environment. We do use JIRA for project management tracking and bug you know, bug fixing or bug tracking. We actually just created a JIRA page for we have this new committee called the excellence committee striving for excellence.
Cathy Lim 26:40
So based on a lot of the employee feedback we’ve been getting, there’s like 15 different initiatives assigned to like 15 different people and then they can satisfy and like other people in their departments or cross pollinated with another department or another team on how we can actually action on these 15 things. So some items have not yet started, some are in progress, and some are already done.
Lindsay Recknell 27:03
I love the tracking, the visibility, the empowerment, to let the leads, choose their support people like amazing, you are doing some very, very incredible things. Cathy, this has been such an amazing conversation.
Lindsay Recknell 27:16
Thank you listeners, everyone out there for listening to another episode of Mental Health in Minutes. Cathy had such insightful and practical suggestions to share on the show from ways that leaders can show up as their accent authentic selves, which encourages employees to also be themselves to all of the low and no cost ways that she suggested that you can use to raise wellness at work and really focus on supporting mental health.
Lindsay Recknell 27:39
Cathy and I both believe in the power of our leaders to create psychologically safe workplaces and we know you do too, or you wouldn’t be listening to this. If you love this episode, please consider subscribing and leaving a review on your favorite podcast player or on our YouTube channel. You can find us everywhere at mental health in minutes, as well as on the web at www.languageofmentalhealth.com.
Lindsay Recknell 27:58
You can start supporting the mental health of your organization in minutes by joining my digital subscription monthly done for you presentations designed to engage, inspire and increase mental wellness in your workplace. It’s my pleasure to get to work with people like you, people, leaders who care so much about your employees and want to give the best of yourself to support those around you. I also know how busy it can be as a people leader, and how competing priorities always seem to get away of actually being able to provide the good stuff, the real value added stuff. Let me help you by doing the heavy lifting and you can get back to doing what you do best, engaging with and supporting your people. Let’s connect and talk about the best ways I can help. As always, I’m here if you need me.
Lindsay Recknell 28:38
Cathy, this has been such a wonderful conversation. Thanks for spending your time with us today. I really really appreciate it.
Cathy Lim 28:43
Oh You’re very welcome. Thank you, Lindsay.
Lindsay Recknell 28:44
This has been awesome. Take care.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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